Introduction next steps? Cats growling at each other?

[Mamanyt1953]

OH, let's mingle scents as much as possible. DO consider some sort of gate. I'm seeing one cat a bit hesitant, ears in "unsure" postion, sniffing at the doorway, trying to get the scent of "this other cat." I'd still suggest a gate, so that they can see AND smell each other fully. They need to associate the smell of the other cat with the cat, itself, and just seeing each other through glass won't do that very well. But you are getting there, slowly.

 

[lil-bee]

Hey all - sorry for the late reply. I was a bit stressed, and previously wrote out a long message that just disappeared too!

So something happened a few days, maybe a week ago and its spooked me out and I don't know how avoid this situation again - but its definitely made me question if / how I can ever bring them together in the same physical space

DO consider some sort of gate. So that they can see AND smell each other fully.

I think you might be onto something. I wonder if there is a disconnect somehow and its causing more stress or frustration due to the visual and smell not coming together. I do worry about the size of gaps for gates though, after NC's recent behaviour.

We were doing our usual exposure at the glass doors though I kept it slightly ajar this time. NC was inside the room with me, and RC had just woken up and came down to wait at the other side of the glass doors. RC tends to be very timid and hesitant, easy to scare and doesn't do well with changes (his Russian Blue breed is known for this I think). But he was being very brave and even cat loafed right at the door.

NC started meowing very loudly and then tried to jump and attack Nizaar after he didn't move. The first video is right after that happened. RC ran away a bit further in the kitchen and she kept meowing / growling at him. I tried distracting her with food, toys, a brush but she just wouldn't budge. She seemed overwhelmed so I put a blanket to break the eye contact and calm her down but she kept trying to go under the blanket and was still very much focused at the door. I eventually managed to distract her with a toy but it really freaked me out how she went for him.

He eventually came back, maybe after 30 mins or so, which I very surprised and relieved by, and I'm hoping he wasn't too spooked. I feel bad tho as I'm his chosen human, and it felt like he was sitting on the other side wondering why mum was with this strange, rude and a bit aggressive girl

He's such a sweet boy, I really don't want NC to think she'll be the alpha or take over the place. What can I do to keep her calm? Since this has happened, he seems a bit more distant too - he will stay in one room and sleep there most of the day, even when she is locked away and he has the roam of the house. He's even stopped sleeping with my parents at night - a routine he has rarely broken in the last 7 years but he hasn't slept with them in the last 3-4 nights I am worried this is impacting his confidence and sense of owning this whole territory.

NC on the other hand is normally sweet but has tried to bite us a few times recently and is definitely more fiesty. We don't know her history or what she was like / experienced before but its a worry on how / if she's experienced other cats and how she will cope. She seems to behave like RC is taking over his territory!

We recently did change from Feliway Optimum to Feliway Friends as the previous ran out and this is what the vet recommended. But I've read that can make cats act out? I've also put on the calming cat music some people have recommended on here.

Not sure what to do now - don't want to harm or spook RC but don't want NC to think she can just bully him or take over the territory. They need to share!

I appreciate the 'fight' was barely a fight in terms of other videos and stories I see here, but I am just super conscious about RC's general personality and don't want him to go into a shell and not feel safe or happy at home

 

[Alldara]

Attack? Or play? Was she puffed up and/or growling? Because a butt wiggle is play, even if the cat on the receiving end is nervous. Be cautious and mindful about the words you begin to use to speak about NC, as they will change your perception of her.
If she's starting to bite a few times and didn't do that before, it's time to get her to the vet. Don't assume behavioural before physical is ruled out, including a teeth check.

It's really normal for RC to be a bit "off" during intros and for humans to feel guilt/nerves about it. So so normal. Even for me and I've done 3 intros in the last few years!

You're using some great tricks and going to RC's pace. They really need to be encouraged to play with their humans while at the door. They need to learn one another's body language and like Mamanyt1953 says it's so so so important to get them able to sniff one another. You can also use wand toys to encourage them to play feetys under the door.

Another trick I have loved using is taking a treat and rubbing it on one cat's cheek and then donating it under the door to the other. Works best with a human on each side to both cats get a reward.

You can also use old towels as scent soakers to change between the cats and start building a family smell.

Also using a dry cloth and rub each cat with it, and then rub along the baseboards of your home. I'm hearing from your post that both cat's are feeling insecure. So it's vital you start building that family scent.
We've learned in recent years that domestic cats are actually decended from a social cat (middle eastern wildcats, not African as previously thought The Evolution of House Cats) And one of the ways they know their clowder from strangers is by that family scent. They exchange scent by sleeping in the same areas, marking the same items and grooming one another. So you want to show them through scent that it is shared territory.

Personally I found Feliway Friends worked 0% for my cats and Optimum works like a charm. There was even an increase in rough play between my two bonded cats when we tried the friends. Too rough where someone would do a squeek.

 

[lil-bee]

Hey Alldara! Thank you so much for your reply and yes you are right... I have to be mindful but my perception is definitely changing a bit. I just hate seeing my boy being bullied or that he's now withdrawn there is a lot of guilt and I guess confusion on NC's behaviour too?

So I have definitely done the family scent exchange. Initially RC would hiss but NC has always been fine with his smell, but I was eventually able to rub my worn dress on RC, rub it on NC, slightly rub it on RC and then rub it all over the house. Should I continue doing this? Its probably been a few weeks since I last did it.

They are also in the same space as each other e.g half the day NC will be in the shared space playing with toys, sleeping on the sofa and scratching the cat post, and RC would be in that space after, sleeping on the same sofa, or rubbing his cheeks on the cat toy. Though he's recently been withdrawn and doing less of that so maybe the strength of his smell is reducing a bit.

I should also say that I've managed to get NC to play on one side of the glass while RC has sat and observed. RC, on account of being a lazy old lap baby (he turned 7 last week), isn't much of a player anyway but he's turned his back on NC, allowed me to groom him etc.

RC and NC normally just sit at opposite sides and look at each other calmly. RC always starts off meowing but would eventually quiet down. But recently she's been doing the butt wiggle and what sounds like a low growl and jumping at the door. I don't know if that's an attack or a play move though and in general she's much more play and hunt focused than RC ever has been. She always tries to paw under the door but I guess I'm just scared about what she's trying to do and whether she will hurt RC and how I can protect him.

 

[Alldara]

Yes, especially as you don't have a gate yet, it's very important to keep mixing their smells and getting the mixed smell (not the two separate smells) around the house.
Even now, I do this by brushing all my cats with the same brush daily.

Even if he's laying down and batting at the toy, that's good for a start. You need to start building his play back up regardless of whether or not it works out with NC. Even at 17, Nobel was batting at string toys and rolling on the carpet for about 5 minutes a few times a day. It won't be the same as a young cat's play, but they need it to keep confidence and to get out stress energy. I recommend starting with 15 minutes a day of solo play time for him and just keep at it; keep in mind that for an adult cat, watching is a BIG part of the game.

RE: At the door
Just trim her claws and let her play with her feet. It's not really like she has that much access anyway, so its a good test to let them physically interacting. She can't do damage by just sticking her feet under and batting around.
It really does sound like play with the butt wiggle. Some cats do retain some odd sounds during play. For example mine make a "fft fft" sound (like Toulouse from the Aristocats) when they get very hyper. Magnus and Calcifer also hiss at toys, which scares the heck out of Ghost sometimes. There's some brrrs and mrrrs that can sound eerie if you haven't had a cat with a wide vocal range before.

 

[lil-bee]

Omg you are the
Mamanyt1953 ! I was reading about Nobel and Calcifer in some of the other threads and didn't make the link! Also, are you a Studio Ghibli fan?

Anyway back to business - RC tends to bat at any toy for a bit before running away from the toy. He's a bit of a wuss and always has been post kitten stage but I'll definitely try and do solo play, and likewise also try and engage NC in play before RC and NC come face to face, maybe the energy will come out that way. She really is so obsessed with him though, she will literally just sit there and look at him. They both will sit on opposite sides of each other's door sometimes, even when its closed and a solid door with no visibility. I wonder what that means?

I'll definitely be more vigilant about the shared scent and they do both like getting groomed with the same brush including on their cheeks so I'll try and do that more regularly.

Since they are both in each other's space I kind of assumed they can smell each other anyway and its all mixed by now (its been two months of them sharing the space)... What would the joint rubbing accomplish?

Finally, I'm thinking of buying this kind of screen as a gate - would that work? Some of the baby gates have bars that are too far apart so I'm slightly nervous about that. But these are magnetic so I feel like if they jump at them they might come apart?

 

[lil-bee]

Oops I tried to link you A Alldara and it linked Mamanyt1953 instead!

 

[Alldara]

Omg you are the
Mamanyt1953 ! I was reading about Nobel and Calcifer in some of the other threads and didn't make the link! Also, are you a Studio Ghibli fan?

Anyway back to business - RC tends to bat at any toy for a bit before running away from the toy. He's a bit of a wuss and always has been post kitten stage but I'll definitely try and do solo play, and likewise also try and engage NC in play before RC and NC come face to face, maybe the energy will come out that way. She really is so obsessed with him though, she will literally just sit there and look at him. They both will sit on opposite sides of each other's door sometimes, even when its closed and a solid door with no visibility. I wonder what that means?

I'll definitely be more vigilant about the shared scent and they do both like getting groomed with the same brush including on their cheeks so I'll try and do that more regularly.

Since they are both in each other's space I kind of assumed they can smell each other anyway and its all mixed by now (its been two months of them sharing the space)... What would the joint rubbing accomplish?

Finally, I'm thinking of buying this kind of screen as a gate - would that work? Some of the baby gates have bars that are too far apart so I'm slightly nervous about that. But these are magnetic so I feel like if they jump at them they might come apart?

Yes my wife and I are studio Ghibli fans! We had the name in consideration for Magnus but ultimately decided against it after a couple days. Cal isnt grumpy like Calcifer but he does like food!

Its okay re:Rc and the toy. Its a great start so dont be discouraged. even if just a few minutes per day, itll help lower his stress.

Yes, I thought the same as use re:site swapping and scent. Thanks to this site and some personal experience in the last years, I've learned that making that family scent only through site swapping takes soooo long. Our intro between Nobel and Magnus took forever!

Those screens are flimsy so im unsure if you feel secure with it on arrival. However, if you're using it in tandum with a babygate it would be fine. I always like to leave a bit of a gap at the bottom for play (me with a wand and for them with their feet). If you check out my videos, i think there's an intro video where the boys are playing feetys

 

[lil-bee]

A Alldara thought you might be with the name Calcifer! I'll check out your videos - I feel like I already know so much about your cats as I've read so many threads here haha!

I am going to try and get a wooden door with square mesh holes as that might be more sturdy.

I guess I've been reading about other people doing intros and kind of freaking out about how to manage any chasing or fights. I'm worried RC won't know how to really defend himself and will get hurt and I'm worried I don't know NC's history or what she might be capable of or what could traumatise her.

So if I get this door where they can see and smell each other, and I keep doing the shared scent - should I be rubbing it around the baseboards or is just a shared brush enough? Well... What do I do at the gates? Should I try and distract? Just let them chill? Limit how long they are spending in that space or?

I suddenly feel nervous now seeing the change in NC. Maybe she wants to play. Maybe she's frustrated. I don't know and I guess it's scary to think about how to protect them or keep it positive and safe.

 

[Alldara]

It's hard but try to take each moment as it is. One step at a time.

You have a safe home for cats. So nothing will traumatize her. Use gentle words. She might get scared, but you have a nervous cat, so you'll handle it.

You're going to watch them both come out of their shells and it will be a beautiful and rewarding experience.

Yes keep doing the baseboards.

Let them explore one another at rhe gates but do use toys to try and encourage them to play together.